Rough Idea, don't hurt me

[[DtK] [Jedi] Ham]

Alright no fancy colours or gifs or text size changes or propaganda, I'm gonna cut straight to it.

The DtK member system is outdated.

It is very rare for a community to have an extensive range of member groups such as DtK. For newer players who aren't aware, DtK has 5 (or 6 if you include Life Member) different Member ranks. Personally I believe this is a great system as it rewards longstanding members of the community or individuals who have made a significant contribution to the servers, to be worn as a badge of honour.

However, as I have previously stated and noticed in recent applications (and I may be getting this wrong), players aren't sure on what they are actually signing up to. Sure this isn't a big issue but I still think that with a new playerbase it may be time for change.

There are 3 things in which I suggest could be done, of course these are rough ideas and I honestly don't expect any of them to be followed up on.

1. Add a Ts and Cs pop-up that has forum rules and outlines the DtK member system appear when people click the "Apply Here" thing to make an application. Make sure they click something like "I have read and understood the message".

2. Change the application itself, whether it be changing existing questions or adding one in saying "Do you know what you are applying for, if so what is it?" This can be done in order to see if people making applications understand what they are applying for, if they say [N] tags or w/e then all good but if they say admin, staff or any admin really can explain how membership and admin applications work within DtK.

3. Reform the Membership System, this is my most sceptical idea but maybe implement a system in which if a player has more than 25 non spectator hours globally and more than 10 Forum Posts, they message staff and upon processing via PM, they can receive like a [R]egular rank. For other ranks such as [M] and [T] maybe merge them into one group too with the same promotion process that currently exists.

Also members who are inactive for more than 3 years should probably be demoted, with exceptions (i mean ranks lower than [JEDI]). I understand this isnt an easy job though so its all good.

As I said these are very rough ideas and I would love to hear other opinions on this matter, and if I'm wrong in assuming most new people don't understand the system then thats all good too.

- Ham

[[DtK] [S] Krezand]

I thought I should give my thoughts and questions, it has genuine ideas that can be implemented and thus I feel it warrants a lot more relevant discussion.
Obviously, these are just my opinions designed for discussion.

You claim that the DtK member system is out-dated, however I don't see how it is.
How do other communities do their applications? What's different that makes theirs better? For something to be out-dated, I believe there would have to be a newer/better version of that something. I could be totally wrong though.

Your first and second ideas are very minor and would not do too much to warrant change in the recruitment process.

I always found the tabs of 'Joining DtK' and 'Rules' to be quite obvious and very hard to miss.
In the past month and a bit, there have been about 40 successful applicants and 2 that are being processed right now, only 4 of those people have had the implication of wanting to become an admin, however only one person out of those 4 treated it as an actual admin application. I believe it's safe to assume that those 3 people knew what they were applying for, however they did have 'aspirations' of becoming an admin. Of course, this is totally fine.
This means that only 1 person out of the 42 have made the mistake of not being able to read.

Your first idea suggests a pop-up. Who gets this pop-up? How often does this pop-up happen? What if the person that gets the pop-up is uninterested in joining DtK? There have been several cases of people joining forums but applying for membership months or even years later.

In regards to idea #2, having the addition of one question is unnecessary. By answering yes to this question:
Have you read and understood the requirements for joining DtK? Click HERE to read requirements
It should imply that you know exactly what you are applying for.

I don't quite understand your third idea, it's most likely just me. The rest of this reply is just me rambling on about the 3rd idea, which most likely isn't relevant to the actual idea. Can be treated as a 4th idea instead.

For other ranks such as [M] and [T] maybe merge them into one group too with the same promotion process that currently exists.

Do you want N to be replaced with R? And you want the other non-admin ranks to be merged together? or do you want the non-admin ranks to have the same promotion process that the recruitment process currently has? I just didn't understand the 'merge them into one group' statement.

If you're somewhat implying that the recruitment applications and the member promotion applications should be reversed, i.e Recruitment apps private and Promotion apps public, I totally agree. I believe if Promotion applications were to be made public, (assuming that promotion apps can only be seen by staff and council) there would be much more valuable insight as to the support of a certain person being given a promotion than the recruitment process.

Due to the prerequisites of becoming a DtK N and M, it is unnecessary or not needed of someone to be leaving comments about the person that has made the application because if one were to be mischievous or having a negative impact on the forums or servers, an infraction or ban would have been dealt, thus the application becoming rejected, thus making the +1's and -1's null, void and useless.

For the ranks of T and above, having the application process public, it would help staff make a much more informed decision as to who they should promote. However looking at the other side of things, if staff and/or whoever else helps out with the promotion process does not know of someone (that has applied for promotion) being active on servers and/or forums, then I guess they don't deserve to become promoted.
HlstatsX usually gives a good indication of server activity though, so maybe the idea of having the promotion application process public is unnecessary too.

I rambled on about the membership and promotion processes for a bit, it might not have been what you were referring to at all, so it can be treated as a 4th idea lol

[[DtK] [S] Krezand]

Just quickly on the subject of having a rank/title in between JA or SA or whatever this is about.
All this admin talk seems extremely situational. What JA can't handle a situation that an SA can? How does that warrant an extra rank?

And whats with this admin experience talk? The rules are known by all JAs and SAs of the respective servers, and because of that, you make a judgement according to those rules and how the server deals with punishments. I don't understand how experience comes into play here.

[shadowsl4yer12]

I thought I should give my thoughts and questions, it has genuine ideas that can be implemented and thus I feel it warrants a lot more relevant discussion.
Obviously, these are just my opinions designed for discussion.

You claim that the DtK member system is out-dated, however I don't see how it is.
How do other communities do their applications? What's different that makes theirs better? For something to be out-dated, I believe there would have to be a newer/better version of that something. I could be totally wrong though.

Your first and second ideas are very minor and would not do too much to warrant change in the recruitment process.

I always found the tabs of 'Joining DtK' and 'Rules' to be quite obvious and very hard to miss.
In the past month and a bit, there have been about 40 successful applicants and 2 that are being processed right now, only 4 of those people have had the implication of wanting to become an admin, however only one person out of those 4 treated it as an actual admin application. I believe it's safe to assume that those 3 people knew what they were applying for, however they did have 'aspirations' of becoming an admin. Of course, this is totally fine.
This means that only 1 person out of the 42 have made the mistake of not being able to read.

Your first idea suggests a pop-up. Who gets this pop-up? How often does this pop-up happen? What if the person that gets the pop-up is uninterested in joining DtK? There have been several cases of people joining forums but applying for membership months or even years later.

In regards to idea #2, having the addition of one question is unnecessary. By answering yes to this question:
Have you read and understood the requirements for joining DtK? Click HERE to read requirements
It should imply that you know exactly what you are applying for.

I don't quite understand your third idea, it's most likely just me. The rest of this reply is just me rambling on about the 3rd idea, which most likely isn't relevant to the actual idea. Can be treated as a 4th idea instead.



Do you want N to be replaced with R? And you want the other non-admin ranks to be merged together? or do you want the non-admin ranks to have the same promotion process that the recruitment process currently has? I just didn't understand the 'merge them into one group' statement.

If you're somewhat implying that the recruitment applications and the member promotion applications should be reversed, i.e Recruitment apps private and Promotion apps public, I totally agree. I believe if Promotion applications were to be made public, (assuming that promotion apps can only be seen by staff and council) there would be much more valuable insight as to the support of a certain person being given a promotion than the recruitment process.

Due to the prerequisites of becoming a DtK N and M, it is unnecessary or not needed of someone to be leaving comments about the person that has made the application because if one were to be mischievous or having a negative impact on the forums or servers, an infraction or ban would have been dealt, thus the application becoming rejected, thus making the +1's and -1's null, void and useless.

For the ranks of T and above, having the application process public, it would help staff make a much more informed decision as to who they should promote. However looking at the other side of things, if staff and/or whoever else helps out with the promotion process does not know of someone (that has applied for promotion) being active on servers and/or forums, then I guess they don't deserve to become promoted.
HlstatsX usually gives a good indication of server activity though, so maybe the idea of having the promotion application process public is unnecessary too.

I rambled on about the membership and promotion processes for a bit, it might not have been what you were referring to at all, so it can be treated as a 4th idea lol

#Krezand4Staff

[[DtK] [M] Dyelon]

Things can be outdated without a new system thats better in place. Things being outdated is often what causes a breakthrough to happen to the system IMO.

About the community rankings; Id like to see a rank above [N] for people with lots of ingame time, but not 3 months forum activity, which had a similar prestige or less than [M]. Then above that role would be [T], which could be promote-able from [M] and the new rank.

[[DtK] [Jedi] Ham]

1. About the outdated system, other communities rarely have member ranks at all, the ones that do normally have Regular or Respected, just to show that they are individuals who have played the servers and have been a part of the community for a long time, leaving applications only for Mod/Admin/Staff. The system of having an application to be promoted to each member rank and the fact that there are so many is the reason why it is outdated, but as I stated I personally like the system myself, it's just that a lot of people are used to the method I'm saying as it is very common, and it is rare for a player to have to be a "Member" before applying for Admin.

2. I find that people intentionally skip out on reading the rules etc as they may think that it's the same as everywhere else (and I may or may not be speaking from personal experience on this point :^))

3. As I said, I could be wrong about people thinking they are applying for Admin, so what you're saying could be right.

4. I should have explained the pop up better, what I meant was that when someone clicks to make an application, before taking you to the template, it takes you to a Terms and Conditions style page showing the rules and Member system. It only appears to those who go to make an application.

Now to respond to your idea about the 3rd thing, I was thinking:
Instead of [N], have an automated/privatised system for active players server and forum side to become [R]egulars

Thrn have the next step from [R] as the public step (as you said), with the rank being a combination of [M] and [T], so instead of having [N] [M] [T] [V] etc, have it as [R] [insert cool member rank] [V] etc

If you have any other questions we can talk on steam cos I aint posting off my phone ever again.

[[DtK] [C] Squall]

How many of you actually read the Terms and conditions of website,programs,etc? Thing is, even with the guidance provided in the applications itself, people will choose not to read or close it after quick glance. Yes, a lot of players have recently joined with the sole reason given as acquiring admin - so have current M+ in the past albeit being a bit more discreet about it. What someone puts in for the Why bits in an application cannot be 100% verified. I can put in a 1000 word love letter to DtK but my real intention could be to get admin. No harm done here, for 1. Neo is a probationary rank and progressing further has requirements that need to be fulfilled, the Neo rank is there so that both the player and the community have a chance to see what both have to offer and if they both are happy at the end of their trial period , a decision is made on whether they stay and progress or otherwise and 2. putting in an application whether to join DtK or for admin hunt does not mean automatic promotion to admin.

[[DtK] [M] H.ey]

While I haven't been part of DtK for long, I have been part of similar gaming communities for other gaming titles, and I have moderated several myself. I hope I don't intrude by throwing 2 cents into the mix.

With time all communities grow, and more people do more and more for the community everyday. In efforts to properly reward those who contribute and make this community what it is today, it's only natural that there are several ranks. While I understand that it looks like chaos, it's actually organised chaos. Each rank has it's own purpose with different requirements.

By reading the rank outline in the quicklinks menu, I have the general idea, as well as the reason why they don't really go together. [N] is for people that haven't really proven why they are here or if they intend to stay. [M] is for people who have made a solid case that they want to help out. [T] is for those who strive to improve this place. [V] is for those who have been there, done that and sent a postcard. (I'm sure you know all this, but I'm not entirely sure on my short descriptions, so I'm waiting for corrections if need-be)

Now if you were to merge any of those ranks, you would have issues. If I make a spam post a week and play CS for 3 months, I qualify to be [M]. Though I have not shown intention to help the community nor have I actually done anything for it, I would be handed an [M] rank and that's it. Does that match the description of either [T] or [V]?

I am not quite sure how promotions happen for the other ranks, but I imagine they are awarded at the end of a service period(JA/SA/S/EM) or rather after proving oneself as a reliable member. Don't quote me on that however.
Bottom line is that all ranks serve the purpose in rewarding those who work to improve the community. Removing/merging any of them will only make people feel unappreciated.

In regards to the application changes, as a person who has recently filled one out to join DtK, I find that all it takes is reading some text. People who are not patient enough to click the link titled "Read Here First!!!" (maybe you should make it all CAPS with glowing lights and Snoop Dogg should Smoke Weed Erryday when you hover over it, and then people will click it?) are just going to have to grow up a bit.

As for the final piece, the extra admin rank. The only way you could justify said admin rank would be to give it an extra task that JAs cannot handle. Otherwise, there is no need to put one admin onto a pedestal and say "HEY [JA] DUDES, THIS IS [A] AND HE'S YOUR OTHER-OTHER-OTHER BOSS!"
The position of [A] that you think should be implemented is already present as [SA]. Squall leads the pack. As "the rule makers/owners and gods of the community" he has nominated several team leaders to handle the multitude of servers DtK has. This is also known as "delegating." As team leaders, [SA] need to lead, teach, train, supervise and control their particular team members, the [JA].

Again, I'm still a fairly new member of the community, and I can't say I know all there is to know about everything. Several of my opinions may be flawed or based on incorrect information. It is definitely not my intent to discredit or aggravate any member of this community. I just figured I'd share my 2 cents.

[[DtK] [Jedi] Ham]

To go from what you said Squall, I think you didn't understand. The [R] rank also serves the same purpose, except it would be done privately with the promotion thread to the next rank being the thing made public. The rank up from [R] should hold the same value as [M] OR [T] but instead of both those ranks existing, only have one (kind of like how I think it used to be well before I joined).

But anyway as I stated I was confused as to whether or not people thought that the Neophyte app was actually for admin, and that changing the rank system was my most skeptical idea (if thats how you spell it).

also noob ill have u no that i read the ios9 ts and cs it took me forever but when ur in Nowra anyhings fun

[[DtK] [Jedi] ShamWoW]

I like the idea of demoting inactive users as there seems to be a lot of them making up the lower ranks, [M] and [N] in particular.

I concur.

I have only been around for a short while, but I have noticed there looks to have been an increase in applications. In addition to this there are a substantial number of members in the lower N & M ranks with forum activity 3-4 years ago, some of those haven't connected to any DTK server for 2+ years (at least according to HLStats)

I am certainly not pushing to make it an exclusive club, buy perhaps culling inactive users may make memberships more meaningful to those who are here to contribute.

I recently got bumped from N > M. Was a little confusing though as I was told I didn't qualify till the 20th of January (6 months since first joining the community, while http://www.dying2kill.com.au/showthr...-The-DtK-Ranks states it is only 3 months).

But here is the thing, what do N, M, T, V etc get to do that other ranks dont? What is expected of each tier? etc. I donate (shit that reminds me I haven't this month *runs off to donate*), regularly. I also encourage users in the servers to donate. I help users out in the servers, make suggestions, alert the appropriate rank when someone needs a paddlin'.
I am not here to get admin, if it were given to me then so be it. I am in here to contribute to the community and help it grow into something we can all enjoy, but if I am doing something I shouldn't or aren't doing something I should I would love to know so I can stop or start doing whatever that is :-P

Thats my 2c

[[DtK] [C] Squall]

While I haven't been part of DtK for long, I have been part of similar gaming communities for other gaming titles, and I have moderated several myself. I hope I don't intrude by throwing 2 cents into the mix.

With time all communities grow, and more people do more and more for the community everyday. In efforts to properly reward those who contribute and make this community what it is today, it's only natural that there are several ranks. While I understand that it looks like chaos, it's actually organised chaos. Each rank has it's own purpose with different requirements.

By reading the rank outline in the quicklinks menu, I have the general idea, as well as the reason why they don't really go together. [N] is for people that haven't really proven why they are here or if they intend to stay. [M] is for people who have made a solid case that they want to help out. [T] is for those who strive to improve this place. [V] is for those who have been there, done that and sent a postcard. (I'm sure you know all this, but I'm not entirely sure on my short descriptions, so I'm waiting for corrections if need-be)

Now if you were to merge any of those ranks, you would have issues. If I make a spam post a week and play CS for 3 months, I qualify to be [M]. Though I have not shown intention to help the community nor have I actually done anything for it, I would be handed an [M] rank and that's it. Does that match the description of either [T] or [V]?

I am not quite sure how promotions happen for the other ranks, but I imagine they are awarded at the end of a service period(JA/SA/S/EM) or rather after proving oneself as a reliable member. Don't quote me on that however.
Bottom line is that all ranks serve the purpose in rewarding those who work to improve the community. Removing/merging any of them will only make people feel unappreciated.

In regards to the application changes, as a person who has recently filled one out to join DtK, I find that all it takes is reading some text. People who are not patient enough to click the link titled "Read Here First!!!" (maybe you should make it all CAPS with glowing lights and Snoop Dogg should Smoke Weed Erryday when you hover over it, and then people will click it?) are just going to have to grow up a bit.

As for the final piece, the extra admin rank. The only way you could justify said admin rank would be to give it an extra task that JAs cannot handle. Otherwise, there is no need to put one admin onto a pedestal and say "HEY [JA] DUDES, THIS IS [A] AND HE'S YOUR OTHER-OTHER-OTHER BOSS!"
The position of [A] that you think should be implemented is already present as [SA]. Squall leads the pack. As "the rule makers/owners and gods of the community" he has nominated several team leaders to handle the multitude of servers DtK has. This is also known as "delegating." As team leaders, [SA] need to lead, teach, train, supervise and control their particular team members, the [JA].

Again, I'm still a fairly new member of the community, and I can't say I know all there is to know about everything. Several of my opinions may be flawed or based on incorrect information. It is definitely not my intent to discredit or aggravate any member of this community. I just figured I'd share my 2 cents.

I'd say that's a pretty accurate understanding of the ranks.

Thing with ranks is that there isn't a solution that will keep everyone happy indefinitely. You only have 2 ranks - Rank A Rank B, the Rank A people won't be happy till they reach Rank B and once everyone is Rank B or a majority are B, Rank B loses it's prestige/value. You have multiple ranks and there is incentives for people to rank up. But you still have some unhappy people especially those just starting. Once more people rank up, the ones towards the higher ranks feel the ranks losing value. If you start pruning ranks, the ones that were higher ranked do not like grouped with lower ranks. DtK has gone through a lot of changes with regards to ranks, we started with few, people asked for more, this then gets pruned and now we are here with a bit more ranks with some of you now asking for lesser ranks. So it's an ongoing cycle which will continue to happen regardless of how well thought out you think you idea is, with people not being happy at one point or another.

I recently got bumped from N > M. Was a little confusing though as I was told I didn't qualify till the 20th of January (6 months since first joining the community, while http://www.dying2kill.com.au/showthr...-The-DtK-Ranks states it is only 3 months).

It's 3 month as a Neophyte not since you have had a forum account. 3 months of forum membership would result in someone joining as Neo, putting in an application and becoming a Member on the same day.

[[DtK] [Jedi] ShamWoW]

It's 3 month as a Neophyte not since you have had a forum account. 3 months of forum membership would result in someone joining as Neo, putting in an application and becoming a Member on the same day.

AAAAHHH.

Silly me. Yet again I feel like a douche for not understanding.

Thanks for clearing that up :-)

[[DtK] [C] Squall]

AAAAHHH.

Silly me. Yet again I feel like a douche for not understanding.

Thanks for clearing that up :-)

All good, I have edited the thread to make it clearer.

[[DtK] [Jedi] Onesks]

With the demoting inactive users, if this were to take action will they go down one rank (like T-M) or just loose it all together?

[[DtK] [C] Squall]

It's 1 rank down every time major promotions happens. This might change to inactive members losing tags and getting INACTIVE tags instead with the option of putting in an application to gain back their ranks when they become active. (already being trialled for certain rank)

[[DtK] [S] Cuffeh]

Lol, Ham your tag on the thread "don'thurtme ham2g". Anyway.


Anyway, all of the things I wanted to reply to people kept getting answered basically the further I read down the thread.
Plenty of ideas and discussion I'm impressed.

As Sql said, there is an [INACTIVE] rank, most of you know who Rowdy is for example, previously a Staff member. He has been placed in this INACTIVE rank due to life commitments etc.

Ranks do get pruned down aswell, one rank at a time.

I also would have to say I don't see the need for a third admin tier rank. As many of you have said above, JA & SA are aware equally of the rules, and guidelines for their positions. Whatever a JA may not be able to handle, their SA is there to guide them. As are we [Staff & C]. I think it would not only be a redundant rank, but potentially could cause passive aggressive resentment between JA and A.
If a JA isn't sure on how to approach something and their SA isn't around they're welcome to PM us Staff, I know alot of you PM me a fair bit double checking your decisions or questioning how to approach something. My PM box is always open to any member.


Enthusiasm for admin is also never a bad thing, if people openly admit they are keen for a position when they are only just applying for a Neo rank, I don't see that as a drama. I have PMed applicants in the past here and there when their apps seem a little confused from their end, but like Krez [pretty sure it was you] said, DtK website is actively asking for admin applicants. Applications are received but this definitely does not mean immediate promotion.

[[DtK] [M] Vmigo]

I think the way you explained it all is rather wonderful, to be honest. I don't know how the system works right now because I'm new, but I will admit the amount of people saying they want to be an admin in their application is quite huge.

[[DtK] [V] Arkwark]

Everyone wanted to be an admin at one point gosh guiz

[[DtK] [SA] WalkerBoh]

The position of [A] that you think should be implemented

I never said it "should" be implemented. Was just a query which by my own reckoning I wouldn't even qualify for. But people only seem to see it as someone wanting to say "Hey I'm better than you all". How about looking at it as a reward for long and useful service by great long serving JA's instead? Not something applied for, but something awarded by Council.

A pat on the back and recognition can go along way to boosting peoples moral, confidence, and can re-motivate them to try new things or run more events. It could be a very positive thing if dealt with in the right way, for deserving JA's. There may be better ways of offering these "pats on the back", but Ham's post just brought up for me, some interactions I have had and some comments that have been put to me in the past, so that my brain thought to ask that question.

Currently very happy where I am in DtK and IRL. Just clearing space in my head for new ideas by getting rid of older ideas.

[[DtK] [LM] Knight_Ops.]

Could just replace [JA] with [A] no extra rank.

[[DtK] [Jedi] KT]

Could just replace [JA] with [A] no extra rank.

[A] for average :^)))))